Glenn Fisher is the smart cookie behind ‘The Art of the Click’, the book that talks about writing copy that makes people click on things. I read it again recently and it struck me that people aren’t focused enough on the art of selling, just panicking about the sale. During a Pandemic, there’s a lot of shady stuff going on and a lot of enterprising stuff too - here’s what you should be focusing on. Please forward ruthlessly and if you aren’t signed up to C_NCENTRATE yet, do that here.
What's fundamentally wrong with the way people write when trying to sell things?
People try to sell. That’s the problem. Writing to sell doesn’t necessarily mean writing in a salesy way. It means writing in a way that will persuade people to buy your product or service. Too many predicable patterns and structures have built up in advertising over the years that the vast majority of sales writing is just that: sales writing. Sadly, many people use these patterns and structures as a crutch, in place of interesting ideas.
How has COVID-19 impacted direct-response copywriting? How will it impact it?
There are the micro issues, like an army of brands losing all sense and sending badly written, inauthentic and downright contradictory messages from their ‘CEO’. I mean, the very fact the CEO has never written to you before surely shows they don’t care? But anyway. There is, of course, the awful impact on writers and agencies themselves, where I know people have lost work because businesses either can’t afford to employ copywriters or see it as one of the first things to drop. In cases where it’s a question of simply not being able to afford to hire a copywriter, it’s fair enough and I hope those businesses bounce back stronger. I am more confused by people who see copywriting as a non-essential thing. For me, it’s in times of crisis, such as we face now, when copywriting and thoughtful communication is most essential. Understanding, empathising and better connecting with readers – who themselves are going through bad times because of what’s happening – is something copywriters are trained to do. So, I think businesses should be employing more writers, not less. As for on a messaging front, what’s happened will have a long-lasting impact on people’s lives, especially those who’ve lost friends and family to the virus, so as writers it’s important to consider how we communicate around this setting.
Are Writers under threat or are they about to come into a Golden Age?
The older I get, the more stoic I become, so I don’t think we’re under threat, nor do I think we’re on the verge of a particular golden age. I have some small hope that all the anger, confusion and frustration of the modern era will lead to more people seeking out truth and authenticity and in turn that would be a great time for a writer. But I study a lot of philosophy and history and therefore have a very real awareness of things being pretty Nietzschean. Things tend to repeat themselves and I think we’re seeing that a lot now.
Where do you stand on computer-based writing? Are we doomed to death by robotic text A-B testing?
Successful writing, and copywriting specifically, depends on making an emotional connection to your reader. To do that I think there will always be the need for human input, so I don’t think we should worry about the robots taking over. In fact, I think in terms of marketing, being able to use AI and machine learning to test and measure the copy we write is a positive thing. My only fear is people looking for cost-savings and short-term efficiency will mistake these tools for helping us to write more effectively for ones intended to replace effective writing.
What are the three major sins with sales writing that you are seeing now that you thought people would have stopped doing already?
Businesses and brands framing messages about themselves rather than the reader. Writing about too many ideas in a single communication. Using exclamation marks to indicate something surprising!
What tools do you recommend people use to write better copy? (Ideally different to Hemingway, Grammarly, Scrivener).
I’m a little old fashioned and don’t use much more than pen, paper and laptop. Spellcheck in Word is handy too, but I find the best editing software in the world is to read your copy aloud or have someone else read it to you. Doing so will highlight many more errors and obstacles for the read than any app.
You say being polite is a waste of time (I agree!) can you explain why and say what people should stop doing?
I didn’t realise I had said that. I try to be polite in everything I do. But perhaps it was in regard to getting people’s attention in copy, in which case, I would say causing an emotional reaction is key and being polite isn’t often a good way to quickly evoke an emotion in someone.
What's exciting you right now? Professionally and personally speaking?
I’m most excited by the two books I’m working on at the moment. One is a new non-fiction book about writing, which is close to being finished. The other is a novel and it’s the first time I’ve written fiction since studying creative writing. I love writing generally, and I love writing short, sharp pieces. But with these much bigger manuscripts I’m excited by the opportunity to dig deeper into things and weave together all sorts of strangeness to create pieces I hope will be engaging for those folks who like reading my stuff.
What's next for you?
Who knows right now, with all that’s happening? And generally, I’m not a planner. I have a vague aim to appear as a guest on a BBC panel show in the next 10 years, and that’s about it. Honestly, that’s the closest I come to a plan. Still, I do keep doing things that might lead me there. I have a new series of the podcast to produce, which I’ve been doing various interviews for. There are the two books, which need finishing and I need to find homes for them, so they see the light of day. There’s all the copywriting I do for various clients around the world. And, as the lockdown lifts, it’ll be a case of getting live shows and talks back up and running. In other words, there’s a fair bit to do next, hence not having much of a strict plan.
You're not a fan of testimonials - how do they play right now and in the future? Are they becoming more or less important with the culture of misinformation and distrust?
Ha. I don’t mind testimonials. In fact, I think they can be incredible useful for a copywriter in figuring out how readers and customers talk and think. And I do think they help persuade people to buy things, even when we can barely trust what anyone says these days. But, in my book, I did point out that I think people generally use them in a lazy way. In copy, when you just dump a load of testimonials on a page, people don’t really both the to read them. I tested it and people often scan past. Instead I suggest people take the time to weave them into the copy, pull out certain phrases and guide the reader through. I think that’s a more effective use of them in copy or marketing messages.
In your opinion/experience, who is getting copy that sells really well 'correct' that has been surprising to you?
It’s a really tough question to answer because I’ve come to realise I consume all copy in such an overanalytical way I barely notice if it’s good in a raw sense of grabbing me and engaging me immediately. I tend to look for the psychology or the technique being employed so rarely remember the detail.
How is writing copy for SME businesses vs big corporates changing? Is it?!
I don’t know if it is changing all that much. Or not that I get to see in my little home office, busy writing away. Whether I’m writing for a small business or a global brand, I’m more concerned with the reader, the customer, the person who I’m trying to communicate with. In that respect, nothing really changes. I have found smaller businesses are beginning to understand the value of getting someone to really think about their copy and that’s positive. But as I aim to only work with businesses, big or small, who understand the value of copywriting, I’m lucky to avoid having to worry too much about all the awful copy and discussions around it that I see on Twitter and the like. It would upset me too much to wade into such debate.
Can you explain what a swipe file is and why you recommend people create one?
A swipe file is just a collection of copy you see that you print out, rip out, or write out and keep somewhere safe for later perusal. It’s just another way of recording an idea you might have or to generate some inspiration when you’re stuck on a particular brief and need to get your brain going.
What's the best copy tip you only discovered recently?
It’s not a new tip so to speak, but it’s something I think I only just recently understood truly. It’s the old thing Hemingway said, that he always started out by trying to write one true sentence. For a long time, I thought it was a bit pretentious line. A writerly thing. But recently I had a moment when I was stuck, and this thought came into my head. I wrote what I felt was just a ‘true’ expression of what I was trying to say, and it struck me this is all we’re ever trying to do: just express ourselves simply and honestly. I don’t know if I’m going mad, but it felt like I’d learned something. Maybe there is a tip in there somewhere too.
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NORTH STAR INTERVIEW: Glenn Fisher [eCommerce Genius]
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Glenn Fisher is the smart cookie behind ‘The Art of the Click’, the book that talks about writing copy that makes people click on things. I read it again recently and it struck me that people aren’t focused enough on the art of selling, just panicking about the sale. During a Pandemic, there’s a lot of shady stuff going on and a lot of enterprising stuff too - here’s what you should be focusing on. Please forward ruthlessly and if you aren’t signed up to C_NCENTRATE yet, do that here.
What's fundamentally wrong with the way people write when trying to sell things?
People try to sell. That’s the problem. Writing to sell doesn’t necessarily mean writing in a salesy way. It means writing in a way that will persuade people to buy your product or service. Too many predicable patterns and structures have built up in advertising over the years that the vast majority of sales writing is just that: sales writing. Sadly, many people use these patterns and structures as a crutch, in place of interesting ideas.
How has COVID-19 impacted direct-response copywriting? How will it impact it?
There are the micro issues, like an army of brands losing all sense and sending badly written, inauthentic and downright contradictory messages from their ‘CEO’. I mean, the very fact the CEO has never written to you before surely shows they don’t care? But anyway. There is, of course, the awful impact on writers and agencies themselves, where I know people have lost work because businesses either can’t afford to employ copywriters or see it as one of the first things to drop. In cases where it’s a question of simply not being able to afford to hire a copywriter, it’s fair enough and I hope those businesses bounce back stronger. I am more confused by people who see copywriting as a non-essential thing. For me, it’s in times of crisis, such as we face now, when copywriting and thoughtful communication is most essential. Understanding, empathising and better connecting with readers – who themselves are going through bad times because of what’s happening – is something copywriters are trained to do. So, I think businesses should be employing more writers, not less. As for on a messaging front, what’s happened will have a long-lasting impact on people’s lives, especially those who’ve lost friends and family to the virus, so as writers it’s important to consider how we communicate around this setting.
Are Writers under threat or are they about to come into a Golden Age?
The older I get, the more stoic I become, so I don’t think we’re under threat, nor do I think we’re on the verge of a particular golden age. I have some small hope that all the anger, confusion and frustration of the modern era will lead to more people seeking out truth and authenticity and in turn that would be a great time for a writer. But I study a lot of philosophy and history and therefore have a very real awareness of things being pretty Nietzschean. Things tend to repeat themselves and I think we’re seeing that a lot now.
Where do you stand on computer-based writing? Are we doomed to death by robotic text A-B testing?
Successful writing, and copywriting specifically, depends on making an emotional connection to your reader. To do that I think there will always be the need for human input, so I don’t think we should worry about the robots taking over. In fact, I think in terms of marketing, being able to use AI and machine learning to test and measure the copy we write is a positive thing. My only fear is people looking for cost-savings and short-term efficiency will mistake these tools for helping us to write more effectively for ones intended to replace effective writing.
What are the three major sins with sales writing that you are seeing now that you thought people would have stopped doing already?
Businesses and brands framing messages about themselves rather than the reader. Writing about too many ideas in a single communication. Using exclamation marks to indicate something surprising!
What tools do you recommend people use to write better copy? (Ideally different to Hemingway, Grammarly, Scrivener).
I’m a little old fashioned and don’t use much more than pen, paper and laptop. Spellcheck in Word is handy too, but I find the best editing software in the world is to read your copy aloud or have someone else read it to you. Doing so will highlight many more errors and obstacles for the read than any app.
You say being polite is a waste of time (I agree!) can you explain why and say what people should stop doing?
I didn’t realise I had said that. I try to be polite in everything I do. But perhaps it was in regard to getting people’s attention in copy, in which case, I would say causing an emotional reaction is key and being polite isn’t often a good way to quickly evoke an emotion in someone.
What's exciting you right now? Professionally and personally speaking?
I’m most excited by the two books I’m working on at the moment. One is a new non-fiction book about writing, which is close to being finished. The other is a novel and it’s the first time I’ve written fiction since studying creative writing. I love writing generally, and I love writing short, sharp pieces. But with these much bigger manuscripts I’m excited by the opportunity to dig deeper into things and weave together all sorts of strangeness to create pieces I hope will be engaging for those folks who like reading my stuff.
What's next for you?
Who knows right now, with all that’s happening? And generally, I’m not a planner. I have a vague aim to appear as a guest on a BBC panel show in the next 10 years, and that’s about it. Honestly, that’s the closest I come to a plan. Still, I do keep doing things that might lead me there. I have a new series of the podcast to produce, which I’ve been doing various interviews for. There are the two books, which need finishing and I need to find homes for them, so they see the light of day. There’s all the copywriting I do for various clients around the world. And, as the lockdown lifts, it’ll be a case of getting live shows and talks back up and running. In other words, there’s a fair bit to do next, hence not having much of a strict plan.
You're not a fan of testimonials - how do they play right now and in the future? Are they becoming more or less important with the culture of misinformation and distrust?
Ha. I don’t mind testimonials. In fact, I think they can be incredible useful for a copywriter in figuring out how readers and customers talk and think. And I do think they help persuade people to buy things, even when we can barely trust what anyone says these days. But, in my book, I did point out that I think people generally use them in a lazy way. In copy, when you just dump a load of testimonials on a page, people don’t really both the to read them. I tested it and people often scan past. Instead I suggest people take the time to weave them into the copy, pull out certain phrases and guide the reader through. I think that’s a more effective use of them in copy or marketing messages.
In your opinion/experience, who is getting copy that sells really well 'correct' that has been surprising to you?
It’s a really tough question to answer because I’ve come to realise I consume all copy in such an overanalytical way I barely notice if it’s good in a raw sense of grabbing me and engaging me immediately. I tend to look for the psychology or the technique being employed so rarely remember the detail.
How is writing copy for SME businesses vs big corporates changing? Is it?!
I don’t know if it is changing all that much. Or not that I get to see in my little home office, busy writing away. Whether I’m writing for a small business or a global brand, I’m more concerned with the reader, the customer, the person who I’m trying to communicate with. In that respect, nothing really changes. I have found smaller businesses are beginning to understand the value of getting someone to really think about their copy and that’s positive. But as I aim to only work with businesses, big or small, who understand the value of copywriting, I’m lucky to avoid having to worry too much about all the awful copy and discussions around it that I see on Twitter and the like. It would upset me too much to wade into such debate.
Can you explain what a swipe file is and why you recommend people create one?
A swipe file is just a collection of copy you see that you print out, rip out, or write out and keep somewhere safe for later perusal. It’s just another way of recording an idea you might have or to generate some inspiration when you’re stuck on a particular brief and need to get your brain going.
What's the best copy tip you only discovered recently?
It’s not a new tip so to speak, but it’s something I think I only just recently understood truly. It’s the old thing Hemingway said, that he always started out by trying to write one true sentence. For a long time, I thought it was a bit pretentious line. A writerly thing. But recently I had a moment when I was stuck, and this thought came into my head. I wrote what I felt was just a ‘true’ expression of what I was trying to say, and it struck me this is all we’re ever trying to do: just express ourselves simply and honestly. I don’t know if I’m going mad, but it felt like I’d learned something. Maybe there is a tip in there somewhere too.