NORTH STAR INTERVIEW: Dana Mattioli , Amazon Reporter, The Wall Street Journal

Dana Mattioli is a seasoned journalist at The Wall Street Journal, where she covers Amazon's expansive influence over the years, providing in-depth coverage that highlights the company's strategies and their implications for the broader market. Dana’s work has won multiple awards and she was part of the team that was a Pulitzer Prize finalist in 2020 for its investigation into Amazon.

Her new book ‘The Everything War: Amazon’s Ruthless Quest to Own the World and Remake Corporate Power’ (out April 23rd) explores the business practices of Amazon, and trust me when I say it’s explosive. She and I spoke for a few minutes about covering Amazon, the issues the company faces, and where Jassy and co are going next. She thinks the upcoming election might be a lose-lose for Amazon…

North Star interviews are always free [archive], but with a paid subscription to C_NCENTRATE you get around 50 issues of analysis, links, cutting-edge thinking, and inspiration a year. Readers say it’s “the first good decision” they make each week. Subscribe now for £20 a year. Cancel anytime.

In the book, you liken Amazon to an octopus with expansive reach. Do you foresee Amazon continuing to expand endlessly, or are we entering a phase of significant, and forced, contraction through regulation and economic issues? 

I think that even in the face of regulatory lawsuits and scrutiny, Amazon will continue to push into new industries. Even in the best case scenario for the FTC, they will not head to court until 2026. 

There is a scoop in the book that I really think speaks to Amazon’s ambitions at this specific moment in time when its business model is under the most scrutiny in the company’s history. As regulators around the world are saying that Amazon is too big, Amazon’s CEO Andy Jassy has told his senior leaders that it could be so much bigger. Jassy recently told his deputies that Amazon could become a $10 trillion company. 

You’ve covered Amazon for years and you battle execs and PR folks. You’ve seen all sides. What aspects of Amazon's operations or strategy do you most admire?

This is a company that truly does hire really smart people. Their ability to recruit at that level is impressive. 

Short but sweet! You highlight Lina Khan's role in the early chapters. Considering her past comments and her profile, how might this influence her effectiveness in future actions against Amazon?

Lina Khan made her name on Amazon while just a law student in a law review article that went viral. It’s this meteoric rise we see happen in the subsequent years, with her eventually becoming the head of the Federal Trade Commission. When she was named Chair, Amazon filed a motion to have her recuse herself from any investigations involving the company, but that didn’t go anywhere. That being said, whether the FTC is ultimately successful is a giant question mark. 

Given the vast scale of Amazon, which is often underestimated, what would be the first strategic change you would implement to address the company's current challenges?

I can’t offer up advice, but what I would say from reporting this book is that I am surprised by how often Amazon committed what employees describe as “own goals” that hurt them when facing off with regulators or investigations into their business practices. An aide who worked on Congress’ investigation of Big Tech described it this way: “Amazon had the biggest middle-​finger‑to‑Congress approach that I’ve ever seen with any company I’ve ever dealt with.” There are other scenes in the book where the aggressiveness and pugnacious approach just backfires. There’s this hilarious scene in the book where Amazon, at the direction of Bezos, gets into a Twitter fight with sitting senators and a congressman– the very people who are involved in determining the company’s fate. That’s not the type of behavior you normally see large companies engaging in. 

Andy Jassy has taken the helm at Amazon after a long tenure under Jeff Bezos. How do you envision his leadership influencing Amazon over the next five years, particularly in which business areas?

One of the most marked differences I have noticed between the two leaders is their approach to government relations. In the book, we show how disinterested Bezos was in glad handing on Capitol Hill. He tells Paul Misener, the former government relations head: “Hey, if I wanted to come to Washington, DC, to do this, I wouldn’t have hired you.” That’s pretty telling. Jassy has been much more diplomatic. He is interested in the antitrust battle enveloping the company. He has called senators and other legislators to lobby on the company’s behalf. 

Despite the stock reaching record highs recently, Amazon has not recently introduced groundbreaking technology or done anything spectacularly brilliant than make money with sales/AWS etc. Instead, it’s their AI strategy that seems to be driving the rise. How do you assess Amazon's AI strategy compared to the broader market, and what are its prospects for success with regulators looking directly at them? Amazon recently remove the handcuffs for AWS because of EU regulation, will we see this with AI contracts?

All of Big Tech is focused on AI these days. When I speak to sources at Amazon, there is a sense that while they were early on some types of AI – Alexa for instance – they have been late to generative AI and they are having to play catch up. Right now, a lot of people I speak to at the company view Microsoft as in the lead on AI, but they are certainly investing a ton in the space. 

Amazon is known for its unique practice of using six-pagers during meetings. Do you believe this method is universally applicable, or is it uniquely effective only within Amazon? Could you elaborate on the structure and content of these documents?

As a writer myself, I think six-pagers are valuable. Oftentimes when a journalist is reporting out a big story, you put pen to paper sooner than you’re ready to because it helps you figure out the holes in your story and areas where you need more work, so I could see how that’s also beneficial in a corporation. I also know former Amazon employees who have become CEOs elsewhere who try to bring with them Amazon’s writing culture or the leadership principles to the companies they join because it has become so ingrained in them. 

What future directions do you see for Amazon? Specifically, should the company further develop its healthcare initiatives, or do you see their health efforts as misplaced? (I have a theory they will develop something like Ozempic and mass market it.)

I can’t speak to what Amazon should do, but I would say that they seem really committed to healthcare. Yes, they’ve had some stumbles there with Amazon Care and insurance, but it’s an area where CEO Andy Jassy is very focused, and it’s one of the largest opportunities from a revenue perspective. 

From an external viewpoint, Amazon’s leadership style appears aggressive and mostly unchecked. Is your book intended as a cautionary tale for tech leaders globally, or more of a rallying cry? We’re told this isn’t the best way to lead, but Amazon is a trillion dollar company. Does a company have to be ruthless and exploitative to success to this degree?

What I found in reporting out this book is that Amazon’s culture, which is unlike any company I have ever covered, stems from the top. Its aggressive business tactics filter down into the culture, and also filter down into how the company deals with government relations and the press. There are scenes in the book where Bezos tells his top deputies to “punch back” and I think that’s more broadly emblematic of the company’s culture and drive to win. 

The book discusses Amazon's competitive tactics, often to the detriment of smaller rivals. With legal actions being less feasible against such a giant, what recourse do smaller entities have, and what does this imply for needed legal reforms? Why do people still take meetings with Amazon knowing that the company has a sketchy history for IP rights?

I think to answer the question you first have to truly understand Amazon’s size, and not just in retail. Amazon is the number one, two or three player in a staggering range of industries. Amazon commands 39% of all online retail in the U.S., is the world’s largest cloud-computing company, and is the third-largest digital advertiser by revenue in the U.S. It’s the top parcel carrier in the US. It makes the top-selling voice assistant and streaming device, and commands 82% of ebook market share in the U.S. It is a grocer, a Hollywood studio, a podcast maker, and a healthcare provider. That reach gives the company unmatched leverage in negotiations with partners, including its third-party sellers. 

Because of its stature in all of those industries, if you are an entrepreneur looking to be acquired or looking for an investment, you almost have to talk to them. Even their fiercest competitors often work with Amazon in some capacity because of its market position. In addition to buying other companies, it also has a venture capital arm called the Alexa Fund. I’ve spoken to many founders who felt like they have been burned by various Amazon entities by partnering with the company or engaging in these sorts of talks. Many of them have considered suing Amazon, but they cite the costs of going up against one of the biggest companies in the world and they’re pragmatic about it. If they sued, they’d go bankrupt. 

How significant is consumer choice and public awareness in shaping the competitive landscape dominated by Amazon? What strategies could smaller entities employ to enhance their visibility and appeal to consumers increasingly accustomed to Amazon's ecosystem?

It’s really tough as a seller in the U.S. to avoid being on Amazon. Nearly 40% of all products sold online in the U.S. happens on Amazon.com. I’ve asked sellers I have spoken to who describe these scenarios on Amazon where their margins are being crushed or they feel like Amazon is abusive toward them why they stay, and I always get the same answer: They need to sell there. One seller told me: “Amazon’s the only place to sell, I think. I might as well close up shop if I relied on the other retailers. Amazon’s the only one where you sell anything.” The last decade or so has been marked by what pundits call a “retail apocalypse” of retail bankruptcies. There are fewer options for these sellers. 

With Alexa not performing as profitably as other Amazon ventures, what are your thoughts on its failures to capitalize on this technology? Do you foresee a resurgence?

We had a big story at WSJ about Amazon losing money on devices, and it was revealing that for all of the things that Alexa can do, consumers primarily use it for a few (free) functions: timers, alarm clocks and the weather. There doesn’t seem to be the consumer appetite to interact with it in many of the fancy ways Amazon has spent resources developing. 

The portrayal of Amazon as 'the devil' in the context of corporate espionage raises questions about legality versus ethical conduct. To what extent do you agree with the notion that Amazon's actions, while aggressive, are within legal bounds?

I am not a lawyer, so I can’t weigh in on the legality. What I found in my reporting is that Amazon had protections in place during the M&A and venture capital processes to protect itself from lawsuits. The book reveals how Amazon relied on something called a “residuals clause” that said that Amazon could use “for any purpose and without compensating the Disclosing Party, information retained in the memory of the Receiving party’s Personnel who have had access to Confidential Information.” So, if you go to one of these meetings for an investment or acquisition and you share your most secret plans, roadmaps and technology and a member of the team Amazon sends to these talks retains that information in their memory, it’s considered fair use because of this clause. One of my Amazon sources described this as a “Get-out-of-jail-free card.”

Considering Donald Trump's past antagonism towards Amazon, any predictions for Amazon if he were to serve a second presidential term?

I think that this upcoming election might be a lose-lose for Amazon. The Trump White House for the company was marked by personal attacks and nasty tweets from Trump directed at Bezos, Amazon and The Washington Post, which Bezos owns. But, it was mostly rhetoric, not action. I asked Trump’s trade adviser Peter Navarro why it didn’t take action against Amazon which Trump had called a monopoly and Navarro said: “Amazon needs to be broken up. It can’t be this conglomerate.” He claims that if Trump had been reelected, the administration would have forcefully gone after Amazon. 

Then you have the Biden administration which Amazon seemed really well positioned with because it had Jay Carney as the head of communications and government relations. But, Amazon was largely shunned from the Biden White House. There are scenes in the book where Carney is basically begging Ron Klain to invite Bezos to roundtables. Unlike the Trump White House, Biden has taken specific actions. He placed Lina Khan as the head of the FTC. He seems aligned with her vision on antitrust. The lawsuit against Amazon came during his administration. 

The book delves into Amazon's PR approaches, especially in the era of Jay Carney. How do you think PR strategies in Silicon Valley need to evolve for tech giants to achieve greater transparency?

What’s interesting about PR in Silicon Valley is that there isn’t one playbook for how these companies handle their communications approach. Each company has its own way of working with the media. There’s a reference in the book to a senior PR person at Amazon noting that “We want policymakers and press to fear us.” I don’t think all of Amazon’s tech peers have that mindset. 

In your analysis of Amazon, how do you assess the company's strategic positioning against emerging competitors in e-commerce (Temu/Shein) and existing ones in the technology sector (Google, Spotify, Apple), particularly as these sectors see rapid innovation and new entrants? What strategies do you think Amazon will adopt to maintain its market dominance while fostering innovation? Is it a brand new day or back to the old playbook?

I find it fascinating that Amazon’s go-to statement is that it doesn’t care about competition because it’s “customer obsessed.” What I have found in my reporting is that Amazon very much focuses on competition, and specific competitors. If you look at the Trader Joe’s anecdote in the book, it shows just how intently Amazon can laser focus on a competitor. In that situation, the company hired a manager from Trader Joe’s snacks business to work on Amazon’s private label foods assortment. She shows up at headquarters week one and stumbles upon a secretive conference room with brown paper over the windows and doors and once inside it is filled with boxes of Trader Joe’s snacks. This is a total “Oh Shit” moment for the employee, who started piecing together what she’d be working on. Her manager starts pressuring her for confidential information she had retained from Trader Joe’s. He makes her send over internal Trader Joe’s sales documents. Then bullies her to send over the margins. “You just have to give us the data!” he yells at her, and she bursts into tears. It turns out that when pitching this private label brand, the team had said it would replicate the top 200 items at Trader Joe’s and the team was determined to find out what those were. The book is brimming with examples of just how focused Amazon is on the competition. 

---

Buy ‘The Everything War’ on Amazon and in most other bookstores.

For more information and to engage with Dana, head over to The Wall Street Journal.